Thank you for proclaiming and searching the whole word of Yahweh. Please if my question’s and reasoning’s seem harsh or confrontational forgive me as this will never be my intention. I
It seems to me that Yahshua never planed to look out into the world and see many different denominations. It seems the teaching of one body is about the many beautiful gifts Yahweh has blessed humans with. Not every person receiving the same skills, and abilities, however, every persons blessings are equally important to the one body. This body is regulated by the TORAH just as our human bodies are regulated by the design our creator endowed us with.
This next part is not confrontational it is my way of asking a question. Please realize I am searching for the truth and feel it necessary to point out my understanding so that others can respond, thus allowing us together to examine the whole Bible and come to the one and only correct understanding. I am not saying I am correct, I am simply giving my understanding today so that others can respond so that I might grow and have the truth.
Yahshua never said he is Yahweh. He even said “why do you call me good. There is only one who is good, and that is my father”. Why do men proclaim that Yahshua and Yahweh are the same? “In the beginning was the word”. Yahweh spoke and our existence as humans began. Yahweh taught humans several times how to live “morally correct” many time in the TORAH. Finally he sent his son Yahshua a walking talking representative of Yahweh’s word. The Ruach Ha-Ko-desh (Holy Sprit) had to be Yahweh because it was this that over came Mary so that she was with child. This does not represent any duality or two separate entities. It shows that Yahweh can control his sprit, where we as humans in this physical body will die if our sprit leaves. Yahweh said “I am” he is only one. The beginning and the end. Even Yahshua said after the thousand year reign he will give the Kingdom back to Yahweh. So why is everyone so intent on saying Yahshua is Yahweh. Yahweh told Israel any who says there is another equal or as great as him is a false Prophet. We are even warned that this teaching would come.
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Timothy, you are most welcome. The question you are asking is fine. Questions in general are good, if one is seeking the truth.
One answer to your quote of Jesus saying, “Why do you call me good? There is only one who is good, and that is my father” is emphasis. Many people look at the question and put the emphasis on the word good, as in, “Why do you call me GOOD?” I believe it is more likely Jesus was saying, “WHY do you call me good?” Jesus is not saying he is not good. He is asking the hearers for their reasoning in calling Him good. If only the father is good, and Jesus is good, then it would stand to reason that Jesus is God. There are those who would rather read into the question a doubt of Jesus’ divinity so that they can take it away (even though it cannot be taken).
As far as identifying Jesus as God, I find that most questions revolve around the issue of method. How did Jesus walk around down here as a man, suffering and tempted in all ways as we are, and at the same time be God? How could God allow Himself to be tortured and killed? And so on. The questions are based, in my opinion, on a very limited understanding of both God and Jesus.
John the disciple said, “No man has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known.” (John 1:18 ESV) Or if you prefer the King James, “No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.(John 1:18, AV) John the Baptist said that “he is before me.” (John 1:15) My take on these statements is that all physical representations of God (when people “saw God”) were of Jesus. Jesus is the physical representation of God, and reveals God to us. The torch and pot of Genesis 15 is Jesus. The angel of the Lord at Sodom and Gomorrah (Genesis 18:22 and other places) was Jesus. The burning bush was Jesus. The rock giving water in the desert was Jesus (1 Corinthians 10:4). If God were to look in a mirror, He would see Jesus staring back at Him. It kind of blows the mind as far as how exactly God does this, but He does it. Jesus is so identified with His Father that for all intents and purposes He is, in fact, God.
Jesus does things that only God can do, such as forgive sins. We can forgive sins against ourselves, but only God can forgive sins against Him. Jesus heals, tells us the future, and knows what is in the hearts of men. The grave could not hold Him. A good man, or prophet, or wise teacher could not have been the perfect sacrifice as was Jesus. Jesus forgives sin against God because He is God. The method of incarnation does not matter. He who breathed into Adam the breath of lives, created all we see, and redeems us from the slavery of sin can do anything He wants to do. And I thank Him for that.
Shalom
Bruce
Shalom Bruce,
I can agree with you that when anyone saw Yahshua they saw a reflection of Yahweh.
In John 14:9 this is what Yahshua was saying “when you see me you see my father”. Just as Yahshua was the word by his perfect life, also he was a perfect reflection of his father by his perfect life.
For me the explanation ” If only the father is good, and Jesus is good, then it would stand to reason that Jesus is God”. Dose not fit. Yahshua is Yahweh’s son. He lived a perfect life, therefore, proving his divinity, however, when he gave his life for us what made him different than any other man giving his life for others is Yahshua lost his divinity as he took our sins upon himself. At that moment he found himself for the first time in his life separated from his father just like we are now. Even after Yahshua returned from death he never once said he is or put himself as equal to Yahweh.
I have read others who agree and explain Yahshua with the same concept as you shared with me. Thank you for the timely answer. Again I know this may sound as though I am teaching. I with the deepest love and respect bring this understanding to you so we may discuss and understand together. May this come to you in peace.
Shalom
Timothy
The problem with your thinking Jesus lost his divinity when He took on our sins is that it isn’t supported by the Word, as you want my view supported. Again, the question seems to really be, How? How did Jesus take on sins, momentarily become separated from the Father, and retain His divinity? How could a sinless God “become sin” and pay for our sins?
We learn that with the sacrifices, and this may seem a little facetious but it isn’t, that a lamb didn’t become a human during the sacrifice. It was merely a substitute. The lamb didn’t do anything (was innocent) and yet God accepted (at least temporarily) the action. Jesus was innocent, and remained so. As a substitute for me He didn’t “become me” He just used His blood to atone for my sin. I take advantage of His sacrifice by accepting it, and God accepts it too. I think you are taking the “became sin” thing too far in your thinking and assuming that somehow He Himself changed, when He cannot change. And the Father did not leave Him alone.
Behold, the hour is coming, indeed it has come, when you will be scattered, each to his own home, and will leave me alone. Yet I am not alone, for the Father is with me.(John 16:32, ESV)
I thought you might come back with the original statement, that Jesus didn’t say He was God. But He did, many times.
If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.” Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?(John 14:7–9, ESV)
What Jesus didn’t say is that He is the Father. Jesus and the Father are different, but the same. They, along with the Spirit, are God. How they do that is hard to understand, but that doesn’t take away from the fact that it is true. And it doesn’t take away from the fact that Jesus is God, has always been God, never stopped being God, and will always be God.
Shalom
Bruce
Thank you for sharing it is so hard to have a debate.
Jesus (Yeshua) never lost his divinity. GOD (YAHWEH) has never had sin in any way, form or fashion. If he did than he is a liar. You and I both know he is not a liar. YAHWEH is the only entity pure and righteous, capable of being Judge of all things.
Quite the opposite because of Yeshua divinity Yeshua was able to go to Hell (Shol) and bring back the keys of life. Yeshua was resurrected with an eternal body just like the one we will get when we are resurrected. All the apostles could heal and cast out demons. Peter (Kafa) was so powerful like Yeshua people hoped his shadow would fall on them so they could be healed. But when he died that was it because his seed came from man. Any other person who was resurrected in a physical body as of yet has not been eternal, only Yeshua.
You are right about the lambs in the sacrifices. These lambs were shadows of things to come. During the 1000 year reign when we sacrifice, the lambs will be a reminder of the sacrifice Yeshua made for humanity.
Where we really understand differently is the way you interpret what John and Phillip said. For me they are saying because of Yeshua perfect life, Living the TORAH (Fulfilling, doing it all) we can see YAHWEH his father. Yeshua was a walking talking image of the word this made him eternal. Because YAHWEH is perfect, the first and the last, because Yeshua lived as a man perfectly he too was eternal and we saw YAHEWH when we saw him. He sacrificed this when the sins of the world came on him.
Shalom May YAHWEH shine on you always
Timothy
Romans 5: 10 Romans 6: 10. Romans 8: 11 Romans 8: 17 Romans 13: 1 Romans 15:8, 1 Corinthians 1:3, 1 Corinthians 1:9 2 Corinthians 5:21 Galatians 3:13 Galatians 4:4, Galatians 4:6 Philippians 2:9 Colossians 2:8-12 Colossians 3:17, 1 Thessalonians 1:3, 2 Thessalonians 2 : 16-17, 1Timothy 2:5, 2 Timothy 1:2 every book in the New Testament (B’rit Hadashah) says Yeshua and YAHWEH are not the one. The Old Testament (TANAKH) teaches us that anyone who says they are YAHWEH is a false prophet. Deuteronomy 18:20, Isaiah8:20,Ezekeal 22:28, Jeremiah 14: 15-16
Perhaps one of the differences between us is seeing the difference between the Father (as God), the Son or Jesus (as God) and the Spirit (as God). I see from the Word that Jesus is in every way God, but He is not the Father. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Spirit (actually Spirits) is God. But the Son is not the Spirit, the Father is not the Son, the Father is not the Spirit, and so on. But they are all God, and there is only one God.
The verses you quote mostly just mention the Father and the Son as being separate and distinct from one another. They never say that Jesus is not God. We see sometimes from the Word that Jesus is not the Father (1 Corinthians 8:6), but that does not mean that Jesus is not God.
Jesus could not be Lord if He were not God, because we are not to worship any god but God. Jesus could not forgive sins against God unless He was God, because even a good person could not forgive sins that are against another person. We can only forgive sins that are committed against us.
And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.(1 John 5:20, ESV)
We are sons of God through Christ Jesus, but that doesn’t mean we are God (or Jesus for that matter). We are His children because we act like His children (or act like Him). Jesus is the Son of God not just because He acts like the Father, but is in fact a direct descendant. As the Son of God, Jesus shares the nature of God just like sons of Adam share the nature of Adam. But Jesus does not have the nature of Adam because there is no direct physical link as there is with us.
But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.(Hebrews 1:8, ESV)
So I agree that Jesus is not the Father, but it seems the Word definitely states that Jesus is the Son of God and is God. But not the Father.
Shalom
Bruce
I see that we agree on several levels, however, not on many. We agree that Jesus is the Son of GOD. We agree that Jesus is a direct descendent of GOD, and no other man is. We agree that Jesus and GOD are separate and distinct from each other. We agree that the nature of Jesus is different than the nature of man. We agree that Jesus came to tell us that faith is the way to salvation, and the TORAH, teaches us how to live and recognize sin. Jesus came to say that the law his father gave to Moshe not the Talmud the Pharisees were teaching is true and beautiful and wonderful for all.
Thank you for this beautiful debate we have been able to have in peace and the sprit of trying to grow in our wisdom.
May I pose another question for us to share?
Shalom
Timothy
I am sorry my intention was not to have the last word. Bruce please if there is more that needs to be said please share so I might be able to think and contemplate what you write. When you feel we have come far enough on this path is when we can move to another, if you want to.
Shalom
I agree that we seem to see eye to eye on many of the salient points. I just see that as the Son of God Jesus shares the nature of God, just as a son of Adam shares the nature of Adam.
For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, (Colossians 1:19, ESV)
But we can move on to the next question whenever you want, Timothy.
Shalom
Bruce
Colossians 1: 19 is an interesting verse. Have you studied its origin in the original text? What was the warning Paul was giving the Colossians about? How did the Gnostics arrive at there understanding of divinity? This goes a long way to help us understand Yeshua nature and divinity as well as his individuality in relation to YAHWEH. Yeshua is the first.
Shalom
Timothy
I don’t think going back to the original language helps all that much with Colossians 1:19. But the context helps a great deal, as well as comparing versions in English. In Colossians 1:15 Paul says Jesus is the image of the invisible God, and in verse 16 he says that “all things were created through him and for him.” Colossians 1:17 emphasizes that “he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.” Sounds like God to me. Throughout the Old Testament God presents Himself as the only savior yet at the same time the Anointed or the Branch or the one born of a virgin will save. Of course, we can try to say that God intended to “save” through the Anointed, but I think it’s more likely and more Scriptural that He will save because the Savior is God in the flesh.
There is a big assumption that Paul addresses this subject with the Colossians because of Gnosticism. I do not agree. I think Paul brings it up because of the natural tendency to think of Jesus as, um, just a man or a man who was “raised” to godhood, or a really special man. But still a man. Sort of like you are believing. But you aren’t the only one.
Down deep I think many people (not necessarily you) who question His divinity want to downgrade His message also. They don’t want to “obey the gospel” (Romans 10:16; 2 Thessalonians 1:8; 1 Peter 4:17). The Jewish leaders didn’t want to accept Him as God either, and for similar reasons (they didn’t want to give up authority, nor did they really want to obey God). So to justify disobedience they attack the messenger and try to discredit Him. If Jesus really is God then that validates everything He did in a most stupendous and impossible to ignore way. And it’s not really the unbelievers who damage His reputation by denying His divinity, it is those who call themselves believers (or Jewish leaders, or whatever flavor they want to cover themselves with).
No man could’ve done what Jesus did. No man, no matter how nice a guy or how excellent a teacher or how full of the Spirit or how complete a prophet could’ve had his death accepted as an atonement for my sins. No man could’ve forgiven sins only God can forgive. No man could’ve called himself “the bread of life” (John 6:48) or “living bread” (John 6:51). No man could claim to be the “bread of God” who “comes down from heaven and gives life to the world” (John 6:33). And most assuredly no man would’ve obeyed like Jesus obeyed.
Shalom
Bruce
Shalom Bruce,
He has rescued us from the domain of darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of his dear Son.
It is through his son that we have redemption-that is, our sins have been forgiven. He is the visible image of GOD. He is supreme over all creation, because in connection with him were created all things-in heaven and on earth. visible and invisible, whether thrones, lordships , rulers or authorities- they have all been created through him for him. He existed before all things and he holds everything together.
Also he is head of the body, the Messianic Community- he is the beginning the firstborn from the dead, so that he might hold first place in everything. For it pleased GOD to have his full being live in his son.
For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
Being rescued from darkness through faith in our Messiah all things be come new.
I can read these verse above and clearly see that GOD and Jesus are not one being.
YAHWEH said in Isaiah 43: 10-13
You are my witnesses says ADONAI, and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you can know and trust me and understand that I am he- no god was produced before me, nor will any be after, me. I yes I, am ANDONAI, besides me there is no deliverer. I have declared, saved and proclaimed not some alien god among you. Therefore you are my witnesses says ANONAI, I am GOD, Since days began, I have been he, No one can deliver from my hand When I act who can reverse it? Here is what ADONAI, your redeemer the Holy One of Israel. says “For your sake I Have sent (an army) to Bavel and knocked down the fleeing Kasdim, all of them; I am ADONAI, your Holy one, the Creator of Israel your King”
First we can clearly see the YAHWEH is the only one, none before him none after.
Jesus is after him.
Every Jewish person knows this. This is why when you teach the understanding you have of Yeshua Messiah they cannot here it. When Yeshua and the disciples were here thousands of Jewish people came to know the savior and were baptized in his name. Then the gentile some years later were blessed with the holy ghost just as the Jewish had been up to that point.
Not just this verse there are many teaching in the Old Testament about the sovereignty of GOD.
Now look at the difference in the two interpretations of Colossians at the beginning of this discussion and you will see the first which comes from the Complete Jewish Bible makes it much easier to distinguish Jesus from GOD and how important what Yeshua the Messiah’s role is.
Shalom
Timothy
I read the same verses, Timothy, and it is clear that no one person can do what Jesus has done and not be God in the flesh. No man can create. No man can hold all things together. There is no way possible that the blood of a man with Adam’s nature could atone for my sin and the sins of the world. It has to be God.
Why does God refer to Himself in the plural? Why does He say, “Let us make man in our image?” Because there are at least three (or maybe nine if you count seven spirits). All over the OT there are verses where God says that He will save, there is no other God before Him, and yet Jesus saves and accepts worship.
One other observation I have, and that is that you are using a name for Jesus that is never used in the Bible. But some Messianics use it all the time to try and indicate that Jesus is God (Yah). I used to also. Just sayin’.
His name was Yehoshua or Joshua (after the exile it was Jeshua, and in Greek Jesus or Ἰησοῦς Iesous ee-ay-sooce).
Shalom
Bruce
Shalom Bruce,
Thank you for the debate. It has been enlightening for me. I do have a sad heart though. The word of GOD is not hard to understand. It is sad the direction of the words here. This is truly a salvation issue. One day after choosing which Tribe we will be in we will enter New Jerusalem through the correct gate, and I will stand before Yahweh. When I do Yahweh will be on one throne and Yeshua will be on the other. They will be eternal light. Not everyone who speaks and teaches now will be there with us. Some will be shocked. This is what is sad for me.
Shalom
Timothy
Bruce the we and us I spoke of in the last comment of the debate were my family those who have faith and trust in GOD, and Jesus the messiah. Those who after repenting have made Yeshua their example and learn the Torah just like GOD and Jesus told Israel to do. Many teach that salvation cannot be lost. These teachers do not know understand the Torah or the New Testament. Many Christians are lost. Excepting Jesus is to except a way of life. Faith and works are the same thing. Because of faith we will have works. This is the same Gospel taught in the desert and that Jesus taught us.
Shalom
Timothy
I do not think that salvation can be lost, because it depends on God and not on myself. However, not all people who think they are “saved” are really saved. Some just wear the name like a tag that can be removed at will. Happily, God has not appointed me to decide who is saved and who isn’t. My job is to teach “all that He commanded” and let people adjust as they desire. I agree that to accept Jesus is to accept a way of life, and that faith and works go hand in hand.
Personally, when I stand before God to answer for my life, I will be throwing myself on His mercy. Because I certainly do not deserve salvation no matter how many commands I observe properly. That does not mean I stop trying to do as much as I can, which is the difference between me and a lot of wannabees.
I also do not think I will have to know what tribe I’m in (or choose one), nor what gate to enter. That teaching certainly is not in the Bible, Old or New. As far as I can tell, and Jews can tell, they are all one tribe, just as God said. Paul said there is only one body. If there are parts, that is up to God and I’m sure He will tell me if I need to know. The two house stuff has done more to divide the body than many other non-biblical teachings. I don’t see why tribes or two sticks even has to be an issue. Genetics does not count at all. We are children of the promise, not chosen because of birth parents. Ishmael didn’t participate in the promise. Jacob was born second. Rahab and Ruth were not Israel but ended up being fore-mothers of Jesus. Anyone can do what God says if they choose. And doing what He says is truly the important thing.
Shalom
Bruce
Yes it is not in the Bible that we will pick which tribe we will be in. I will not have to through my self at the mercy of GOD because I have been washed clean by the Blood of Jesus the Messiah. However, when I stand before Jesus as he hands out awards I will be happy if I get Janitor. Although I will not need mercy, if we can be ashamed I will be.
Thank you for this time and words you have shared with me. I will continue to study and grow strong. You are brave to teach the things you do. I know that you will also continue to study and grow. I am sure you know as I do, we have different understandings of the truth. One of us has to be wrong.
Shalom
Timothy
Bye, Timothy. Just remember, stick with the Bible and you can’t go wrong.
I find that many of the people who jump into the Messianic movement or forms thereof are not really looking to follow what God says. They are getting involved because it’s neat to dress like a Jew, or follow the feasts like a Jew, or something like that. They love getting into the rules, and frequently drift towards the “orthodox” side of beliefs. Then they generally end up with a denial of Jesus as God because, well, in order to be a Jew that’s what you have to do. They also have to start reinterpreting the NT, looking for a “Hebrew” original, because they can’t figure out how to reconcile their new-found Jewishness (natural or two-tribes version) with Scripture. They start off doing a lot of spiritualizing of the Word, and then turn spiritualizing into an art form to support their desire to be Jewish. They become excellent Pharisees.
I was in it myself for a while, and watched the drifting happen to a lot of friends. One of my best friends was (notice the “was”) Brad Scott of Wildbranch Ministries, and he dived in headfirst after a period of disinterest during which I tried to talk to him about it, as I also have with many others. It was sad to experience, and is still sad to watch. Yet much of what these former friends pursue isn’t biblical at all, and in order to follow them I would have to deny the Word and my Messiah. Their beliefs are resulting in chaos and splits. Which is funny considering they claim unity. Although how they can claim unity by preaching division I have no idea. My take on it is that they somehow want to be special, and included in Israel, and use the teachings as way to legitimize their (apparent) lack of identity (between the church and the synagogue) when they decide to follow Torah. Little do they realize our identity is in the Messiah and all those teachings (even if true) are really no more than back burner issues at best. We have an identity. It is in Him.
All we have to do is simply follow what God says to the best of our ability, yet that doesn’t seem to be enough for many. They have to add to the Word, or subtract from it, just like Eve did in the Garden.
I am not saying any of this applies to you. I’m just giving you a personal insight into what seems to happen to way too many people. People who should know better. I hope they find the way. I’ve been wrong before, and I will probably be again until we meet Him face to face and He straightens us all out. So far I have found security on the Rock of His Word, and no one has been able to explain away what I believe (from the Word). So far what I have found has helped me gain more peace, more of the Spirit, and more blessings pressed down and overflowing. I hope the same for you. Until we meet at the pearly gates, watch, study, and keep pursuing the fullness of the knowledge of Him.
Thank you for caring, posting and debating.
Shalom
Bruce
Thank you for your patience. I hope we can have more discussion. As I was reading again today about prophecy Messiah must do I read Psalms 2: 7, Proverbs 30:4, Matthew 3:17,and Luke 1: 32, These first two are prophecy that had to be fulfilled by the Messiah, and the last two are the fulfillment of the first two. In order for Jesus to be the Messiah he must be the son, the Begotten of GOD.
The messianic community I have meant so far do not have it right. In Numbers 15: 14-17 GOD told Moses there is one law for Israel and the foreigner who is with them. However the experience I have had is that the Jewish Practitioners get special privileges and they say they are the only ones who can tell us what Hebrews truly says.
Yes one day as I was doing some research for a Sunday school class I came across an article about why do Christians worship on Sunday when the Commandments tell us to keep the Sabbath holy. I was blown away by what I read, So I began my own research. Now I can clearly see that most of what I was taught as a Christian is not true. I now can understand many things that Paul wrote in the correct understanding. I now understand what Yeshua was saying and teaching in the light he intended us to understand with.
Bruce the reason you have fascinated me is the humble way you can express your views. It did feel a bit angry when you spoke of the many names GOD has.
Bruce I would ask you to read Hebrews 6: 3-6. This is just one place but it is powerful about can some find the good word of GOD and then fall away.
If you are going to tell folks that once they are saved they cannot lose there salvation I pray this is one of the lest Messiah was talking about.
And now today a preacher brought up an interesting verse at church. (My family and I keep Sabbath, however we are the only whole Bible believers here so my children and I go to church on Sunday as my children need exposer to people searching for the lord) The verse is 2 Chronicles 36:16. When I read the last 5 words of the verse there were so many emotions which came over me, fear, sorrow, and heart brokenness. Maybe if you read it you will see why.
I hope Bruce this is not good-bye.
Shalom
Timothy
Misunderstanding, Timothy. I thought you were leaving. Sounded like it, and I expected it from experience. Glad you’re still here.
I looked up Proverbs 30:4 and Psalms 2:7. However, again there is a difference in how I read them. Psalm 2:7 simply says, “I have begotten you.” Couple questions. How can the Father be talking to the Son on the day He is begotten? A baby can’t talk, can He? The second question is, why does begotten have to mean the same start as a regular human? It could just as easily mean that today the eternal God was born as a man, couldn’t it? For Proverbs I have to ask, doesn’t it also say that He came down? Does that mean that God came down as a human? You are apparently seeing two people, as if the Son doesn’t share the Father’s nature. I see that just as I share the nature of Adam, and am fully human, Jesus shares His Father’s nature and is both fully human and fully God. I see two separate “people,” but both are God. The Scriptures support this in my opinion.
You need to study the concepts of traducianism and creation. Traducianism is a doctrine that states that all people were created at once in Adam (we know this is possible with genetics and DNA). That is why when Adam fell we all fell. When we are born we share Adam’s sin nature. Creation is a doctrine that states that God creates each baby (nature and all) new. The problem with this doctrine is that it means God creates sinful babies. Since under this doctrine God would be creating a sin nature for each birth, then God creates sin and we know that isn’t true (He created consequences for sin, but not sin). It would also mean that sin or sins are not our fault but God’s.
If God created every human at the same time (breath of lives) then that explains why the Messiah had to be born of the Holy Spirit “overshadowing” the “seed of the woman.” It also explains the seed of the woman being the Messiah.
I wasn’t angry at any point. I might’ve been rapid-fire in my response but only to cover a lot of ground in a short space. Sorry. More discussion is fine by me. I know how important it is to maintain fellowship, especially if you find yourself alone. You don’t have to be alone.
I agree that people who pursue Jewishness, and it seems that many Torah followers do it just to be Jewish, think they are in a special class and have special privileges and special insight. They seem to think that only Jewish people are in, and all the Gentiles are second class. This is one of the many indicators that something is not right with their beliefs. I think this is how the Pharisees and other leaders during the Incarnation thought also. And it is one of the reasons we can’t fellowship with many of those locally who claim to be Messianics or Torah-followers. I call them the church in a talit!
Shalom
Bruce
May this find you strong in the faith of YAHWEH..!
In the Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary the word Begotten (3205) is interesting to study. A couple of the descriptions of Begotten are: declare pedigrees, be the son of, and specifically to show lineage. As I thought about the other uses of the word to do with midwives and birth a whole new discussion came to my mind, however, we must need to stay focused on the present topic.
My understanding of the use of begotten in Psalms 2:7 , is to prophesize the coming of Messiah, therefore, thou art my son, this day have I declared your pedigree, you are the son of YAHWEA (GOD), I am declaring specifically your linage.
The Complete Jewish Bible says Psalms 2:7 “I will proclaim the decree: ADONAI said to me, you are my son: today I became your father.”
Here the father is not talking to the Son he is using prophesy to proclaim the future.
Bruce I am sorry. I do not understand the next question A baby can’t talk can he? I am not sure how to approach this and in what context you are asking.
I believe in our earlier debate we both agree that the nature of Messiah is not the same as man. Unlike any man except Adam, Yeshua (Jesus) was born of a virgin. In Mathew 1: 20 we learn: “for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.” This is why Jesus is man and the son of GOD with the nature of GOD not man. This is very important because it shows that no other man could be like Jesus. Jesus is the only one that has this distinction, pedigree, linage, and can be the son of GOD.
My understanding of Proverbs 30: 4, is the verse is asking the first 5 questions because every Israelite knows the answer is GOD. The sixth question “what is his son’s name?” is used to make the Israelite’s to remember the Messiah is coming and the follow up “Surely you Know!”, or “if thou canst tell” is to remind them they are supposed to know the TORAH, and what the prophets have said, reminding them how far they have moved away from the pure and protecting words taught in the TORAH.
How did Adam know what sin is? By the word of GOD. Genesis 2: 16-17: ANDONAI, gave the person this order: “You may freely eat from every tree in the garden except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. You are not to eat from it, because on the day that you eat from it, it will become certain that you will die.”
After GOD brought Israel out of Egypt how did they know what sin is? Again it is the word of GOD, the TORAH, the first five books of the Bible. All the laws cannot be kept today because the Levitical Priesthood no longer exists, the tabernacle and temple are destroyed, and we do not have an earthly anointed king. However every rule and law is still real and relevant, it is just that some cannot be used without the proper authority to say let it be so. For example,
Numbers 19: 1-10, ADONAI said to Moshe and Aharon, “This is the regulation from the TORAH which ADONAI has commanded. Tell the people of Israel to bring you a young red female cow without fault or defect and which has never born a yoke. You are to give it to Elazar the cohen ; it is to be brought outside the camp and slaughtered in front of him. Elazar the cohen is to take some of its blood with his finger and sprinkle this blood toward the front of the tent of meeting seven times. The heifer is to be burned to ashes before his eyes—its skin, meat, blood and dung is to be burned to ashes. The cohen is to take cedar-wood, hyssop and scarlet yarn and throw them onto the heifer as it is burning up. Then the cohen is to wash his clothes and himself in water, after which he may re-enter the camp; but the cohen will remain unclean until evening. The person who burned up the heifer is to wash his clothes and himself in water, bur he will remain unclean until evening. A man who is clean is to collect the ashes of the heifer and sore them outside the camp in a clean place. They are to be kept for the community of the people of Israel to prepare water for purification from sin. The one who collected the ashes of the heifer is to wash his clothes and be unclean until evening. For the people of Israel and for the foreigner staying with them this will be a permanent regulation
Here we see this is a permanent regulation meaning it is still in effect, however without a cohen of the Levitical priesthood a tent of meeting (temple) , or altar for sacrifice we cannot keep it.
However, there are regulation’s and instructions we can easily keep. For example:
Numbers 15: 37-41 ADONAI said to Moshe, “Speak to the people of Israel, instructing them to make, through all their generations, tzitziyot on the corners of their garments and to put with the tzitzit on each corner a blue thread. It is to be a tzitzit for you to look at and thereby remember all of ADONAI”S mitzvot and obey them, so that you won’t go around wherever your own heart and eyes lead you to prostitute yourselves; but it will help you remember and obey all my mitzvoth and be holy for your GOD. I AM ADONAI your GOD, who brought you out of the land of Egypt in order to be your GOD. I am ANONAI your GOD.”
GOD said to do this so if we do not we are sinning. The 10 commandments is another example of how GOD gave us instructions which we can follow today.
Bruce although I do not know those two big words you used to understand two different concepts of how sin is in existence and relevant to each human being I will try to give a brief explanation of my understanding of sin. This is a huge topic. The whole Bible is specifically designed to help us understand sin, what sin can do to us, how we as humans can deal with it, and why it is.
I heard a story a Jewish Rabbi told once about how at one time in ancient history satan and his demons had so much power in the earth that the Israelites would be walking down the road and see a log lying in the ditch. The demons would cause them to go and kneel down and worship the log. The Rabbi said without being there no-one could understand how awful and powerful this time was. So a group of Rabbis got together and petitioned the Holy Ghost to help them remove these sprits from the world. They were not completely successful, but they were able to have lust removed from the world. The Rabbis felt they had won a great victory, no more rape, divorce, greed, and many other actions man committed due to lust were being perpetrated any more. It was all good until they noticed that none of the chickens were laying eggs any more. This was because the rosters weren’t interested anymore. Now in this time in history eggs were very important, the Rabbi’s also noticed many animals were no longer copulating and that due to the absence of lust man’s existence on the earth was in Jeopardy. The Rabbi’s hurried back together and asked for lust to be returned to the earth, and it was. Of course the lesson here is that everything that seems evil or sin may also have another purpose which is also necessary.
In Romans 5: 12 – 14 we learn:
Here is how it works: it was through one individual that sin entered the world, and through sin, death; and in this way death passed through the whole human race, inasmuch as everyone sinned. Sin was indeed present in the world before TORAH was given; but sin is not counted as such when there is no TORAH. Nevertheless death ruled from Adam until Moshe, even over those whose sinning was not exactly like Adam’s violation of a direct command. In this, Adam prefigured the one who was to come.
Like many other teachings this is just one example, but this does clearly shows sin which is disobeying GOD brings death. Because one person sinned the law of sin and death has been in affect ever since.
With Moshe GOD taught men the gospel as was first practiced by Abraham. That is to trust in GOD and you will be saved. With Moshe GOD gave man the TORAH. TORAH shows us what sin is by showing what to do. If we do not do what the TORAH says then that is sin. This is where GOD clearly show’s man how to live and to place GOD in the position of the most high.
From this we can learn to understand that GOD created everything even satan. We know that GOD is righteous and cannot create anything that is not good. We know that not living according to what GOD has told us is sin. Now we have TORAH so we know what sin is. Sin without faith in GOD, which for us is to believe in Jesus as our Messiah, is death.
From this we can see that every human is born with the same set of rules. Humans have many different abilities, but the same rules apply to all the Israelites and the foreigners we all have the same opportunity to obey GOD. We also know that every human can choose to follow or not to follow GOD’s gospel which makes each human unique and different by the choice they make.
Shalom
Timothy
So what you seem to be saying is, Jesus has the nature of God, does things only God can do like create and forgive sin, but He’s not God. Is that correct? So there remains a god that is not God, and you want me to worship this god that isn’t God? See, this is where your whole argument breaks down. Jesus accepted worship, but we are not supposed to worship any god but God. It’s an argument in circles if you ask me. To me, Jesus has the nature of the Father, but He is not the Father, just like I am not my father (but I share his nature). The nature The Father and the Son share is the nature (fullness) of God. So if we accept your argument that in every way Jesus is God, but isn’t God, then we worship an idol.
Much of what you say about Torah I will agree. However, Torah has always been around. It is eternal, because God is eternal. Jesus is the living Torah, and He has always existed. Therefore sin is disobedience. We may not be aware of our sin, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
Adam and Eve sinned against Torah. The essence of Torah is doing what God says or wills in whatever shape, word or form. They would not do what God said, therefore they sinned. When sin entered the world through Adam, the corruption reached even to us which we can see on a daily basis because we also choose self-will over God’s will time and again.
I’m sorry you think the words I used are “big,” but they serve to condense a lot of ideas into a short space. If Jesus creates babies with new natures every time, then He creates sin natures and not only do we not stand a chance of being right with God (without the blood of the Christ) but our sin is also His fault and we are blameless (of course, not true). However, we know that Jesus does not create sin. We choose sin when we choose to ignore His ways and follow our own knowledge. Jesus created all souls at the same time in Adam, and when Adam sinned he became a different kind of human (one with sin). When he had babies, true to the Torah of “reproducing after our own kinds,” he had baby sinners. And they had baby sinners, and so on.
Proverbs 30:4 is prefaced by the statement that “I have not learned wisdom, nor have I knowledge of the Holy One.” Knowledge in this instance being intimate understanding, not just general knowledge of God. This man asks six questions, all of which are answered in God. That is why the answer is couched in the phrase, “Surely you know!” because they did know. We know. The Pharisees knew. That is why they rejected the Christ – because they denied He was God. This makes their sin that much greater. They knew exactly who they were crucifying. Jesus said, “They know not what they do,” but that didn’t apply to the leaders. It applied to those who really didn’t know what they were doing (like the soldiers and the bystanders and the apostles).
The reason I asked if God was talking to a baby in Psalm 2:7 was that God is obviously talking to someone who can talk. The Lord said to me, “You are my Son; today I have begotten you. Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession.” When you first mentioned this Scripture, you were obviously saying that Jesus was born, and that being born somehow means He is not God. Now you are switching the meanings around to say God was stating a pedigree (which it could be, but the verse then fits the fact that Jesus is God). You want it both ways. Either Scripture means what it says or it doesn’t.
I try to let the Word inform my theology. I do not try to impose my own theology on the Word. The Word equates Jesus to God. Even in Psalms 2. Look for instance at verse 2 of Psalms 2. “The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD and against his Anointed, saying, “Let us burst their bonds apart and cast away their cords from us.” Obviously the LORD and His Anointed are equal. Equivalent. The same. As in, both are God. I can’t get around it. Jesus is God.
Another reason Jesus must be God is that in order to be a Redeemer He has to be related to both parties. This means that Jesus is fully God and fully man. That is why He can purchase us back from slavery. He is related to both parties, and His blood, the blood of God, is the payment. The blood of God is the only payment that would suffice, or God would have done it some other way. This is love at it’s greatest and deepest and broadest meaning. God gave His own Son, who shared the nature of God and should have been lifted up in a much different way than He was, and God’s own blood was shed for us.
Shalom
Bruce
Bruce I will fully try to respond to this understanding you have posed. I will need to talk with YAHWEH and look into the Bible to continue our debate. However, I just read the words and feel it is important for me to say this now.
I am not telling you or any one who or what to worship or not worship. This worshiping is the problem man has had since the beginning. It is this choice of who or what we worship that has been the test of each of us. In our debate I am simply replying to your understanding with mine. I do not think to this point I have attacked or denied your ideas or understanding. I have simply stated what I have come to understand, and that on some of these concepts one of us has to be wrong. Like you said earlier I am not responsible for Judging who is guilty or innocent. If one finds themselves before the White Throne Judgment they will know they have failed. If one however finds there self before Yeshua they will account for there actions but will have peace knowing they will have eternity with YAHWEH. Each man choses his own path. I pray that no man follows me, I pray each man studies the Whole Bible, accepts Yeshua as Messiah, and grows strong in the TORAH, then when and if they are ready guide others to the truth.
I will debate all the points above many of which we have covered already.
Shalom
Timothy
Okay, sorry. I wasn’t trying to say you were “telling” me or forcing me to worship. I was just saying that the natural progression of your point that Jesus isn’t God is that worshiping Him is idolatry.
Looking forward to the results of your research.
Shalom
Bruce
Bruce this is so vast. There is so much knowledge YAHWEH (GOD) has given us it is hard for me to pick a good starting point. Therefore this is where I will begin. If as it seems it will this gets to long winded I will try to edit and then move to your next concept till we finally arrive at an end for this my part of our debate.
In the Numbers 23: 19 it is written “GOD is not a human who lies or a mortal who changes his mind. When he says something, he will do it; when he makes a promise, he will fulfill it.”
We know we can use this verse to prove it is GOD the creator by looking at verse 16 of this same chapter: “ANDONI met Bil’am, put a word into his mouth and said, “Go on back to Balak, and speak as I tell you.”” Complete Jewish Bible
We are not going out of context here to point out that GOD is not a man.
In Luke 1: 34-35 it is written: “And Mary said to the angel, “How will this be, since I am a virgin?” And the angel answered her, “The power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy-the Son of GOD.” English Standard Version Here we learn that Yeshua (Jesus) is conceived and brought to term with Mary’s female organs, therefore Jesus is GOD and human. Therefore Jesus cannot be GOD.
To better illustrate this we can look in the Brit Hadashah (New Testament) in Matthew 4: 2-10 it is written: And when the tempter came to him, he said, if thou be the son of YAHWEH , command that these stones be made bread. But he answered and said, it is written, man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of YAHWEH (here Yeshua shows his humanistic traits by saying he needs bread, and his divinity by putting TORAH first, he lived a perfect life which only divinity is capable of) Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and sitteth him on a pinnacle of the temple. And saith unto him, if thou be the Son of YAHWEH cast thyself down for it is written, he shall give his charge concerning thee and in their hands they shall bear thee up lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. (Hear we see the frailty of Jesus Human body) Yahshua said unto him, it is written again, thou shalt not tempt YAHWEH thy ELOHIM. Again, the devil taketh him into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them and saith unto him, all these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. Then saith Yahshua unto him, Get thee hence, Satan for it is written, THOU SHALT WORSHIP YAHWEH THY ELOHIM, AND HIM ONLY SHALT THOU SERVE. (Here Jesus shows that even he is required to live by the same rules as any other man. Jesus also says whom we are to worship and serve?) Restoration Study Bible
Genesis 1: 1-2 it is written: In the beginning GOD created the heavens and the earth. The earth was surface of the water. Complete Jewish Bible (GOD was before the beginning of man. This is the same spirit that overshadowed Marry.)
Exodus 3: 14 – 15 it is written: And GOD said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. And GOD said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The Lord GOD of your fathers, the GOD of Abraham, the GOD if Isaac, and the GOD if Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations. King James Bible (here GOD tells man he is and always will be. GOD is always present always the same. God is the only one, nothing ever is or can be or will be like him. GOD knows no death, no sin, God is righteous)
A verse in the New testament that confuses many is Revelation 22: 12-13, it is written: “Behold I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each on for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” (English Standard Version Holy Bible) (Here Jesus is saying he is the first man to receive eternal life, the first man with a new incorruptible body, the first perfect sacrifice that can take away sin forever, and he is the last because it will never be required again. His father allowed his son a man who lived TORAH, never sinned, backed up his father more than 100%, and loves his father creation even in our depravity, just like his father does)
Bruce one more verse for this time. Revelation 22: 8-9, And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship Elohim. Restoration Study Bible (many teach that worship is a way of showing respect to someone, like bowing or laying prostrate in front of a powerful leader. Here we get instruction from an angle that is with GOD.)
Bruce this covers about to the first set of parentheses in the first paragraph of you last part of our debate. Please be patient and I will cover all your points. Thank you for Loving YEHWEH so we can have this discussion.
SHALOM
Timothy
Well, while you’re continuing your research, I’ll respond to what you have so far.
Numbers 23:19. First, it’s Balaam speaking, not God. Second, he is not saying God is not a man. He is clearly saying that God is not a liar like a man, or a son of man that needs to repent. In other very clear words, there is no statement here that God cannot be born a human. Only that He doesn’t lie like a man, and He doesn’t change His mind like a man. You are reading into the text. You are in fact going out of context.
Your Luke 1:34-35 reference is confusing. You state that “Here we learn that Yeshua (Jesus) is conceived and brought to term with Mary’s female organs, therefore Jesus is GOD and human. Therefore Jesus cannot be GOD.” Which is it? Jesus is God and human, or Jesus cannot be God?
With your Matthew 4:2 reference, again you are confusing. You say Jesus has divinity (could live a perfect life) and a frail human body. Simply having a frail human body doesn’t mean He isn’t God. And just because Jesus says that the Father is the only one to worship and serve, doesn’t mean Jesus isn’t God. It is not an exclusionary statement to say that the Scriptures demand worship of God only. How does this exclude Jesus? Jesus is not saying not to worship Jesus. In fact, worship belongs to God, and Jesus accepts worship, which is my point in the previous reply concerning your assertion that Jesus isn’t God but we are supposed to worship Him (Matthew 14:33).
Revelation 22:12-13 does not confuse me. Revelation 1:8 says, “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” Pretty clear about the Lord God, the Almighty, and the Alpha and Omega. I think other people get confused because they keep reading into the text. They do not want to acknowledge Jesus as God, therefore they tie themselves in knots trying to explain the clear texts away.
Shalom
Bruce
Bruce thank you for your response. It is obvious that you have come to the understanding you have chosen to accept. I do not believe I have taken the scriptures and concepts you have presented and than said that you are wrong.
My intention was to respond with my understanding hoping that through our exchange we can bring more understanding. However if I did I apologize.
All the words in TORAH and the Prophets are from GOD. What Bil’am, (and I spelled his name directly from the Complete Jewish Bible which does not translate names into English) said, is what YAHWEH wanted said.
It is important to approach the whole Bible from a Hebrew point of view, which for us American’s can be a challenge.
Bruce with this debate I feel it is time for me to close. I would like to continue but it is obvious that there is tension and hostility in your spirit when you respond to my understanding.
Yeshua is from YAHWEH, the same as you and I are from our father. Yeshua has YAHWEH divine nature, just as you and I have our human nature.
Yeshua never one time said he is YAHWEH.
Yeshua said if we pray in his name he will be our intercessory to YAHWEH,
Yeshua taught us to worship and pray to his father YAHWEH.
When Yeshua returned to YAHWEH in his new incorruptible body none of the apostles fell on there knees and worshiped Yeshua.
Christians have been saying Yeshua is YAHWEH for a long time.
Bruce I have come to look forward to our time here. However as the type of men it seems we are it will not serve our fellow man to insult and deny the others point of view.
Thank you for having the courage to tell others about Yeshua and the importance of studying and understanding the greatest gift ever given to man kind TORAH and Yeshua.
Through your preaching others will begin to study TORAH, and YAHWEH will show them the way home.
I hope you respect me as much as I do you.
SHABBAT SHALOM
Shalom
Timothy
Thought so. I said goodbye a few posts ago, knowing that you were positioning yourself like so many others who deny the Word, twist it to fit your limited understanding, then try to act reasonable and while implying I am not. Or stating it outright.
One of the biggest problems with Christianity, the Messianic Movement, and Hebrew Roots people is hypocrisy. Saying one thing and doing another. This is seen when they talk about “being Scriptural” without actually sticking with Scripture. It is seen in the accusations such as your “tension and hostility” comment, when there was no such “spirit.” You, like so many others in the aforementioned groups, are doing what is called ‘projecting.’ You project your own thoughts and feelings on my written words. It is a recognizable pattern, which comes from being convicted of misusing Scripture when engaged in a debate with someone who really knows and follows Scripture.
Your bailout contains typical ad hominem attacks. When you can’t answer the plain meaning of the Word, you attack (or politely infer or respectfully suggest, it’s all the same) my “spirit” or my character. Very plainly, for instance, Revelation 1:8 knocks down every argument you’ve made about Jesus. But instead of repentance, you say I must have a “spirit” that is wrong. You come into the discussion acting like you’re the most reasonable person on the planet just looking for a truth seeking debate yet you are fixated on something blatantly false and stick to it no matter what the Scripture says. So much for searching.
Now, if you sense a “spirit” of “tension and hostility” in this reply you are correct. I am so tired of people like you running around acting like they are better than everyone else, teaching perversions of Scripture, confusing people about the Word, and in this case the nature of Jesus. You are a false teacher, and if I wasn’t solidly on the Rock you would corrupt me with your twisted and incoherent ramblings as so many church and Messianic or Hebrew Roots people have attempted in the past. Thank God I found His Word and thank God I stick with it now.
No, I do not have respect for you, if you couldn’t figure that out by now.
To all readers of this post and the replies: Thank you for taking the time. This is a very important issue, and it is connected to many other important issues for those of us who love truth and want to follow everything God says.
The person who originally posted this has been blocked from this blog permanently. He has tried to sign up with a different user name (twice), and demanded attention through our website contact form. He has requested that we delete this post, because he doesn’t like the (almost last) reply. He alleges unfair treatment and continues to make ad hominem (“against the person”) attacks. Too bad. I think the conversation is an excellent example of false teaching and my biblical response to it. It’s going to stay up as instruction. I usually don’t shut people down, no matter what they say, as long as they are really seeking truth. It was very apparent to me almost from the start that Timothy wasn’t looking for truth but rather seeking a platform for his false teaching.
So many people are attracted to Messianic (and related) movement teachings who are not really following God. They are just following their own desire to tell others what to do, or are simply distracted by the equivalent of shiny baubles, or maybe they just want to feed their egos. This type of thing has happened all throughout history whenever God speaks. When the truth of the Word is reemphasized or injected by God into the world, pretenders get in like the serpent in the Garden and one of the first things they say is, “Hath God really said?”
If you read the post and the replies carefully, you should be able to pick up on the broken logic, convoluted reasoning, and twisting of Scripture that characterizes all similar teachers of falsehood. For instance, Timothy acknowledges that Jesus has the nature of God, but still denies that Jesus is God. Even after I carefully explain that Jesus is of course not the Father but is still God (Elohim) Timothy refuses to accept.
A hallmark of false teachers is that they do not respond to particular arguments proving their teaching wrong. They just skip on to another objection. Or they twist themselves into knots trying to explain away the plain meaning of Scripture. A case in point is when Timothy takes some time trying to explain away Revelation 22:12-13. His take on it is, “Here Jesus is saying he is the first man to receive eternal life, the first man with a new incorruptible body, the first perfect sacrifice that can take away sin forever, and he is the last because it will never be required again. His father allowed his son a man who lived TORAH, never sinned, backed up his father more than 100%, and loves his father creation even in our depravity, just like his father does.” Setting aside the confusing parts, my response was Revelation 1:8 where God says (and Timothy acknowledges that it is YHVH speaking) He is the Alpha and Omega. Either God is saying He is the “Alpha and Omega” the way Timothy defines it (when Jesus says it), or Jesus is saying He is God. Obviously Jesus is saying He and His Father are One. They are One in nature, One in Spirit, One in power, and One in knowledge; in fact One in every way. Jesus is the first and the last just as the Father is the first and the last.
Jesus was crucified for the sin of blasphemy – making Himself equal with God, although it wasn’t a sin for Him. It was true. The leaders at the time simply did not want to accept it. Just as Timothy and his ilk don’t want to accept it. The reason is that if Jesus is God, then everything Jesus teaches is on the same level as all of God’s other Words. The leaders and others like them had usurped God’s authority and were making rules for people to obey that were not God’s rules. Jesus challenged that authority and their false rulings, so He had to go.
Jesus taught humility and love and exactly and only what the Father taught. The religious leaders of the time refused to acknowledge their sin, and many leaders still refuse. They want to cause confusion so their own authority is protected. When we submit in humility to all that God is and has, then He gives us more understanding and wisdom and we can clearly see the truth of the Word. When we don’t submit to God, we end up with all sorts of distracting, confusing, and just plain false teachings. The clarity of God’s Word is buried under a mountain of pride. Next thing you know, Jesus isn’t God though He shares the nature and fullness of God, accepts worship, says He is “I AM” and “the Alpha and Omega,” forgives sins against God, created everything, and now sits at the right hand of the Father with all power and authority.
God refers to Himself as Elohim which is plural. Jesus loved to call Himself “the Son of Man.” These types of statements are mysteries only to those who refuse to do what God says in the first place. If someone cannot figure out the meaning of these declarations it is because they have no light. The clear teaching of our Lord and Master is “do what the Father commands.” Submit to Him in love as He loved us. When love isn’t present then all sorts of confusion takes its place. This confusion is permeating the church and the synagogue to such an extent right now that many are willfully ignorant and being separated from the Word. This will lead to the eventual acceptance of the beast with his Antichrist by both church and synagogue. Believers need to keep the focus on God and His Word, eating and drinking the body and blood of the Christ. For all who repent there is forgiveness. For all who harden their hearts in pride and crucify the Anointed again there will only be hell-fire and damnation.
Shalom
Bruce
It’s now 2018. I don’t have much depth as you, Timothy and Bruce, have with the Bible and Torah. Timothy has put into words many of the questions I cannot organize in my head. When I do raise this to a fellow Christian, I am always met with hostility. I am seeking and asking (still), and these are questions for my clarity, not to challenge or discredit the Bible. I am just another soul about to wander away, hoping for another’s compassion to enlighten me through my doubts.
I do not pretend to know the Bible by heart, nor do I claim that my representations true and correct. But as I prayed and sought for answers from the Holy Spirit, I found comfort in these thoughts, which I pray to have come from God Himself. Jesus is God. Jesus came forth from God the Father. In the same way that the Holy Spirit is from God, has always remained with God yet has the power to roam around our midst and speak to our heart and souls, Jesus came forth from God and has remained with God as an extension of His glory and being, so we can reach back to Him as the only Mediator. Like, God the Father extending His Arm upon earth where sin lies, and getting burned and mutilated in the process, so we can hold on to that hand and reach Him. He came into our presence through Jesus, who came forth from Him, because we cannot come into His presence because of our sins.
I hope to hear from both of you again.
I pray that before I click ‘post’, the contents of my response will give glory to God the Father through the remembrance and Holy Name of Jesus, in the presence of the Holy Spirit.
Hello. We welcome you to the blog, as we welcome all people with real questions. I’ll do my best to answer, or to comment, and hopefully we will be able to have spiritually productive conversations.
Sadly, all people who have questions aren’t really looking for answers. Timothy was not. You on the other hand seem to be genuinely seeking answers, and your comment shows a thoughtful and spiritual approach to the issue. Thank you and may God bless you for it.
There is a mystery to Jesus and what some call the Trinity. We really can’t figure out “how” they do it in every detail. How does Jesus appear as a man, seem to be limited as we are, and allow Himself to be killed? Partly we can’t explain, but partly we can. Jesus voluntarily gave up some of His power and position, because He and God and the Spirit love. Jesus “submitted” to the Father, even to death, because of that great love, grace and mercy. This is revealed to us while the exact process remains somewhat of a mystery. There are people who want a specific, step by step manual on the hows and whys, and others like us who see the love and it is enough.
I cover some of this in our book Whole Bible Christianity, Blessings Pressed Down and Overflowing available on Amazon. If you can’t afford to buy it the text is on our website. There is also an excellent study on this available through Torah Resource titled The Deity of Yeshua for only ten dollars for the video download or fifteen dollars for the DVD.
If you get our book would you please, if you can, add a review for it on Amazon?
Your comment is much appreciated.
Shalom
Bruce
Thank you for such prompt response Bruce.
One of my confusions is where is Jesus mentioned in the Torah or Pentateuch (books of Moses). A disciple in John 1:45, and Jesus in John 5:46, said Moses spoke or wrote about Jesus. I cannot found it Him in these Books in the literal sense, but searching answers through the internet, some suggests Jesus’ coming and salvation were foreshadowed by the lives of Abraham sacrificing Isaac, or Moses himself saving the Israelites. However, if a disciple was clear with what Moses spoke about, then i was thinking, it must also be clear in the Old Testament. Jesus also said in John 5:22 that all judgment was entrusted upon Him by the Father. I was trying to clearly find Jesus IN THE BEGINNING. Would it be right to think that the physical being of God is Jesus, so it was Him that met man in the Garden of Eden and imputed judgment upon them? And so, could it be Jesus, too, that met with Moses in the burning bush. or the references to YHWH (LORD) in the OT?
One of the approaches I use for this subject is to start with the statement of Jesus in John 14:9.
Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? (John 14:8–9, ESV)
Add to this what John says in John 1:18.
No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known. (John 1:18, ESV)
And also what Jesus says in John 5:37-38.
And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen, and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent. (John 5:37–38, ESV)
So if no one has seen the Father, then all the times in the Tanakh (OT) that people said they saw God must’ve been Jesus. Jesus was the torch and pot of Genesis 15; He was the Angel of the Lord who spoke with Abraham about Sodom and Gomorrah (and appeared in all other places that the Angel of the Lord is mentioned). He was the burning bush (Exodus 3:2, 3) and is the person who wrote the Ten Commandments on the stone tablets (He spoke with Moses “face to face” in Exodus 33:11 and Deuteronomy 34:10).
Jesus is the “glory of the Lord” and shows up “face to face” with Jacob (Genesis 32:30) and again on the mountain (Exodus 24:16, 33:20-23, 34:5-7). Joshua sees Him as captain of the Lord’s hosts (Joshua 5:12-14). Amos sees Him standing with a plumb line (Amos 7:7, 8) and by the altar (Amos 9). Isaiah sees Him high and lifted up (Isaiah 6) and Daniel sees Him as the Son of Man (Daniel 7:13-14).
Jesus is not always easily visible to our eyes. Yes, it was Jesus who walked with Adam in the cool of the evening in the Garden. Jesus was the seed of the woman in Genesis 3:15. How could a woman have a seed? Men have the seeds, women the eggs. For the seed of the woman to produce a child it would take an act of God, hence the virgin birth.
This should get you started. You can read in our book Whole Bible Christianity more about this if you want. Let me know if you have any more questions.
Shalom
Bruce
Thank you so much for sharing this wisdom. and for sharing these books online for free. Will definitely read them.
God be with you always. 🙂